Episode Introduction
Ilya Shapiro left Georgetown Law after a controversy over a tweet and later wrote a book about what he saw there. On Podcast 229 of Breaking Battlegrounds, the Manhattan Institute scholar joins Chuck Warren and Sam Stone to discuss Lawless: The Miseducation of America’s Elites and his argument that changes in law school culture are reshaping the American legal system.
Two Florida Republicans follow. Jimmy Patronis, who was then Florida’s chief financial officer, talks about his campaign for Congress, the state’s fiscal record and his case for a leaner federal budget. Rep. Greg Steube discusses the House passage of his Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act.
The episode closes with Kiley’s Corner. Kiley covers a fatal shooting of a Utah teenager and gives an update on the Bryan Kohberger case, which was then in pretrial.
Quick Answer
Breaking Battlegrounds Podcast 229, released January 27, 2025, features Manhattan Institute scholar Ilya Shapiro on his book Lawless and law school culture. Florida CFO Jimmy Patronis discusses his congressional campaign and federal spending. Rep. Greg Steube discusses House passage of his Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act. The episode ends with Kiley’s Corner on true crime cases.
Episode Overview
This episode has three policy interviews and a closing true-crime segment.
Shapiro opens with the argument at the center of Lawless. He says elite law schools have moved away from open debate, and he warns that the shift will shape the next generation of judges, prosecutors and officials.
Patronis covers his campaign for Florida’s 1st Congressional District, which was open at the time. He points to Florida’s fiscal management as a model and describes the federal budget he wants to see.
Steube then discusses his bill to bar biological males from women’s and girls’ sports at federally funded schools. The House had passed it two weeks before the recording. He frames the bill around fairness and safety.
Kiley’s Corner rounds out the hour with two criminal cases: the shooting death of a teenage girl in Utah and the status of the prosecution in the 2022 University of Idaho murders.
About Ilya Shapiro
Ilya Shapiro is a senior fellow and director of constitutional studies at the Manhattan Institute. He was previously executive director of the Georgetown Center for the Constitution and a vice president at the Cato Institute. He also wrote Supreme Disorder: Judicial Nominations and the Politics of America’s Highest Court (2020) and has filed more than 500 amicus briefs at the Supreme Court.
Lawless came out on January 14, 2025, about two weeks before this interview. Shapiro has said the book grew out of his own experience at Georgetown. Calls for his firing followed a controversial tweet, and he resigned and moved to the Manhattan Institute.
About Jimmy Patronis
At the time of recording, Jimmy Patronis was Florida’s chief financial officer, state fire marshal and a member of the Florida Cabinet. Update: Patronis won the April 1, 2025, special election for Florida’s 1st District, the seat vacated by Matt Gaetz. He was sworn in on April 2, 2025. He had resigned as CFO effective March 31, 2025, under Florida’s resign-to-run law.
About Rep. Greg Steube
Greg Steube represents Florida’s 17th Congressional District and serves on the House Ways and Means Committee and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. He was first elected in 2018 and previously served in both chambers of the Florida Legislature. He served in the U.S. Army from 2004 to 2008.
Key Topics Discussed
- Ilya Shapiro’s book Lawless and the culture of elite law schools
- How legal education affects future judges, prosecutors and policymakers
- Jimmy Patronis’s campaign for Florida’s 1st Congressional District
- Florida’s fiscal management and proposals for a leaner federal budget
- The House passage of the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act (H.R. 28)
- Kiley’s Corner on a fatal shooting of a Utah teen and the Bryan Kohberger case
Ilya Shapiro on the Miseducation of America’s Law Schools
The core claim in Lawless is that elite legal education has changed. Shapiro argues that law schools once trained students to argue both sides and respect opponents. He says they now tolerate, and sometimes reward, intolerance of dissenting views.
His argument goes beyond campus politics. During the Breaking Battlegrounds interview, Shapiro connects law school culture to the legal system itself. Today’s law students become tomorrow’s judges, prosecutors and government lawyers. In his view, that is why changes in classrooms eventually reach courtrooms.
Jimmy Patronis on Florida’s Fiscal Record and a Leaner Federal Budget
Patronis came on the show as a statewide officeholder running for the House. He was managing Florida’s finances while campaigning for the seat Matt Gaetz had left.
He uses Florida’s budget management to make his case for spending discipline in Washington. During the interview, he lays out his vision for a smaller federal budget and explains what he would bring to Congress from his time as CFO.
He won that race two months later. Listeners can now compare what he said as a candidate with his record in the House.
Rep. Greg Steube on the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act
Steube sponsored H.R. 28. The bill would make it a Title IX violation for federally funded schools to let males take part in athletic programs designated for women or girls. Sex would be determined by reproductive biology and genetics at birth.
The House passed the bill on January 14, 2025, by a vote of 218 to 206. Two Texas Democrats, Henry Cuellar and Vicente Gonzalez, joined Republicans, which is the basis for the “bipartisan” description in the episode. On the show, Steube presents the bill as a matter of fairness and safety for female athletes.
Opponents saw it very differently. Several House Democrats called the bill discriminatory and argued that it could expose students to invasive sex testing.
Status update: The bill’s path stalled after this episode aired. In March 2025, the Senate companion fell short of the 60 votes needed for cloture, 51 to 45.
Kiley’s Corner: A Utah Teen’s Death and the Kohberger Case
Kiley’s Corner closes the episode with two criminal cases. The first is the death of a teenage girl in Utah who was shot while riding around town with a friend.
The second is an update on Bryan Kohberger, then awaiting trial for the November 2022 killings of four University of Idaho students.
Update: Kohberger pleaded guilty to four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary on July 2, 2025. He was sentenced on July 23, 2025, to four consecutive life terms without parole.
Key Takeaways From the Conversation
- Shapiro argues that ideological conformity at elite law schools will shape the legal system for decades through the graduates who become judges and prosecutors.
- Patronis ran for Congress on Florida’s fiscal record and pledged to push for a leaner federal budget.
- Steube describes his women’s sports bill as a matter of fairness and safety. The bill passed the House with two Democratic votes but later stalled in the Senate.
- The Kohberger case discussed in its pretrial phase ended in a guilty plea and life sentences in July 2025.
Listen to the Episode
- Listen on Substack
- Breaking Battlegrounds on Apple Podcasts
- Breaking Battlegrounds on Spotify
- Breaking Battlegrounds on YouTube
Related Breaking Battlegrounds Episodes
Shapiro’s critique of legal culture pairs well with the following week’s episode. There, Alexander Nazaryan argues that lawfare reshaped liberalism. The two episodes approach the same theme from different angles.
For more on federal spending, see Congressman Buddy Carter on the Fair Tax Act, recorded nine days earlier. Listeners following state-level policy fights can continue with Attorney General Austin Knudsen on Montana’s fentanyl epidemic.
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Ilya Shapiro?
Ilya Shapiro is a senior fellow and director of constitutional studies at the Manhattan Institute. He previously ran the Georgetown Center for the Constitution and was a vice president at the Cato Institute. He wrote Lawless: The Miseducation of America’s Elites (2025) and Supreme Disorder (2020).
What is Ilya Shapiro’s book Lawless about?
Lawless argues that elite law schools have been taken over by an illiberal culture that discourages open debate. Shapiro draws on his own experience at Georgetown Law and warns that today’s students will become future judges, prosecutors and officials. He discusses the book in depth on Breaking Battlegrounds Podcast 229.
Did Jimmy Patronis win his congressional race?
Yes. Patronis was Florida’s CFO when he appeared on the show in January 2025. He won the April 1, 2025, special election for Florida’s 1st District, replacing Matt Gaetz, and was sworn in on April 2, 2025.
What is the Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act?
H.R. 28, sponsored by Rep. Greg Steube, would make it a Title IX violation for federally funded schools to let males compete in women’s or girls’ sports. The House passed it 218 to 206 on January 14, 2025. A Senate version failed to advance on a 51 to 45 cloture vote in March 2025.
What happened in the Bryan Kohberger case?
At the time of this episode, Kohberger was awaiting trial for the 2022 killings of four University of Idaho students. He pleaded guilty in July 2025 and was sentenced on July 23, 2025, to four consecutive life sentences without parole.
